Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

Justyna Rzewinski : A Whistleblower's Fight for Mental Health in Prisons

• Tony Mantor

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Justyna Rzewinski shares her experience as a whistleblower after working at Rikers Island and her ongoing advocacy for criminal justice reform focusing on mental health treatment.

• Working with different organizations to close Rikers Island and advocating for better treatment of mentally ill inmates
• Fighting for smaller borough-based jails to replace Rikers, potentially saving $1 billion annually from DOC's $2.8 billion budget
• Advocating for mental health courts and programs to divert people with mental illness away from incarceration
• Connecting pre-trial defendants to mental health services, education, employment, and housing resources
• Witnessing remarkable transformations when mentally ill inmates receive proper treatment in appropriate facilities
• Challenging misconceptions about mental illness through education and sharing personal experiences
• Working on legislation to mandate healthcare professionals to report abuse seen in correctional facilities
• Demonstrating how one voice speaking up against injustice can create meaningful systemic change

Our experience shows that mental illness treatment works when provided in appropriate settings. We encourage everyone to learn more about criminal justice reform and share these conversations to create better understanding and awareness.


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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantra. Welcome to why Not Me? The World's Humanity Over Hand Cuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Today we're joined by an incredible guest, justyna Roszynski. With over a decade of experience working with populations impacted by the criminal legal system, justyna is a passionate advocate for criminal justice reform and a dedicated force for meaningful change. She's here to share her inspiring story and I'm thrilled to have her on the show. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me?

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's my pleasure, if you would. Could you expand on what you're doing now, since you left Rikers?

Speaker 2:

Island. So since Rikers let me see what has changed I've just been like really involved with like different organizations that are working to close Rikers, so been doing a lot of work with that and attending conferences, doing some speaking engagements.

Speaker 1:

What is your focus on Rikers now? You've worked there and then you left. Then, once you left, you became a whistleblower to tell everyone some of the things that was going on in the prison. What's your focus now on what you saw, what they do and what you think needs to be changed?

Speaker 1:

You know how they treated people with a severe mental illness and we're working to eventually close it or, while it's not being closed, for a federal receivership to take over that do need to be changed so things can be better, and restructure it so that it can still be a facility that is used, but one that is done in a better situation for all involved.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the goal is for it to be closed and it's actually the law that it needs to be closed by 2027, but that's not going to happen by 2027. And the plan is to build smaller jails in each borough and then allocate that money that's left over for community resources, because the budget for DOC is 2.8 billion per year, but if it's closed and the smaller jars are all built, that would save around 1 billion per year. So there is construction taking place I don't remember which borrows, but there is and, like I said, this is a plan and it's the law, so it does have to close. It just depends on when, because the deadline was 2027, but it's not going to happen by that time. The Rikers Island Jail it's on an island, so it's really difficult for people to come in and visit their loved ones or lawyers. It's a whole day trip just getting on the island. If the jails, if the smaller jails, are built in each borough, it would also make it less difficult for people to be able to go and visit.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes sense. So what are you doing now to support all that and reintegrating Anything that's changed since you left there?

Speaker 2:

So I've been involved with different organizations, Like last Friday. I spoke at a rally because it was the Committee of Criminal Justice budget hearing. We had a rally in front of City Hall and me and other advocates, as well as people who are incarcerated, spoke about their experience and also where the money should go incarceration, mental health courts so that people with a severe mental illness don't end up going to Rikers, that they actually receive the kind of treatment that they need, Because, as I witnessed on Rikers Island, people don't get any mental health treatment. They actually get worse and these individuals are coming back into the community and that's how they're being released from Rikers Island not medicated, traumatized, and I'm not saying like people with a mental illness commit a crime, but they don't have the support to help them if they're not on their medications. There's a risk for that. It's our doing as a society not supporting these individuals and providing them with the help that they actually need.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. The one thing that I have heard talking with various people about mental health is the prisons should not be the hospitals for the people that are incarcerated there. They need to be in places where they can get their medications as they need it and hopefully reform in such a way so, when they do transition into the public, that they are actually ready for it.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. I've also been working with different coalitions. In January I went up to Albany and spoke at a press conference there about the Court Expansion Act which we're trying to pass, which would extend mental health courts and programs in the community.

Speaker 1:

I know that you was working at one time with people as they come out of the legal system. Are you still doing that or have you transitioned into something different? What are you doing now?

Speaker 2:

So my like nine to five full-time job. I'm working in a supervised release program. So this is pre-trial. So this is when somebody is arraigned and they go before the judge and the judge decides if they're going to set bail. If they set bail, that means that individual will be on Rikers Island fighting their case, and if the judge recommends supervised release, then they're being able to fight their case while being in the community. So what we do is we make sure that they attend all of their court appointments, they come in and do check-ins with us and we also connect them to outside resources.

Speaker 1:

When you give them the outside resources, is that for the mental health issues that they're facing, or is that for lawyers that can help them? What kind of outside services are you providing or suggesting for them?

Speaker 2:

So they have a lawyer assigned to them right away. So we do not help with that. We do communicate with the lawyers and we let them know if the participant hasn't come in, but that's through the court. Yes, we connect them to mental health services, but also other services such as employment or education, housing. These individuals come with a lot of issues and a lot of needs, so we are able to do all of that. We refer them to programs where they hire people who have involvement with the criminal legal system. We refer them to GED programs or college, whatever needs they have.

Speaker 1:

Sure, that's good. What's the feedback that you're getting?

Speaker 2:

From the whole Rikers situation.

Speaker 1:

Well, the Rikers situation is certainly part of that. Also the speaking engagements that you're doing to help promote what you've been advocating for.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's been very positive. I've gotten so many supports. I've met so many people in this work and they've been very supportive. Unfortunately, people at Rikers are not and I have very few people that I still talk to. Most of the people just don't talk to me, but I received so much support on the outside from lawyers, advocates, people in this work. It's been very overwhelming in a good way. They're really happy and they ask me we're doing a rally, Do you want to come and talk? I've been working with lawyers on certain things. Legal aid has a lawsuit against DOC for lack of access to medical care and I was able to provide an affidavit for that and what I witnessed how individuals there do not receive medical care. It's been really positive working with all these individuals.

Speaker 1:

That's good to hear. Now, anytime you go into something, you always have your goals that you want to accomplish there In the time that you've been there. What are some of the things that you've accomplished that you, in the back of your mind, thought, man, I probably might not be able to get this, but you did.

Speaker 2:

From what I've heard and I don't know if this is true, but this is what I heard that they're no longer deadlocking individuals and if somebody is locked in, they're only locked in for a tour and then the officers are told to let that person out. And I couldn't believe that when I heard it, because I remember working there and having people on my unit locked in for weeks and months and it was a number of people. So just hearing that nobody's locked in only for a tour, I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, I did that To me. That's amazing because it was happening in every unit, so I didn't know that I would have such an impact. There's currently investigations going in, so this is being investigated, so they have taken my concerns and what I discussed very seriously and I really did not think it was going to be such a big impact.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that's certainly very good. Now you made that impact. What are some of the other things you are trying to accomplish? I mean, that's a tremendous amount in just that short period of time. What are some of the other things you're trying to get out there so people can understand what you're advocating for and what's going on, and that way you can hopefully make a dedicated change?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so definitely letting the public know about how people with a mental illness are treated in a jail, because a lot of people don't know. If you don't have a family member, if you're not doing this work, you have no idea, and this is where we send the most vulnerable people to a jail, where they don't receive any treatment. So I'm always trying to make the public aware and even though they're not locking in anyone, it doesn't mean the work stopped, because that's happening right now. I want to make sure it continues and not because now they're on the spotlight, they're not doing this and then a few months pass, some time passes and they go back to it. So that's my goal and, like I said, to help those Rikers and help extend more programs where people actually get the mental health treatment that they need.

Speaker 1:

You work with a lot of people that are schizophrenic. Is that correct? Now, schizophrenia has a stigma attached to it that some people just do not understand. They think that if they hear about someone that's schizophrenic, they think about the movies, which just is not true. How do you change that perception when you're talking about schizophrenia and unfortunately, when you're dealing with schizophrenia you have some of the worst case scenarios. They do some really bad things, but then they get on medications. They understand what they did was wrong and now they're a totally different person from what they were. How do you change the perception of those people when you're talking with others that don't understand? Because they look at it as they did something bad, put them in jail, throw away the key.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I try to educate people and I say eventually these individuals will be coming out of jail we're not the judge and the jury. We can't just throw away the key and really educating them about what the system does to them by locking them in a cell and not giving them access to medications. These individuals were born with this, it's not like they brought it on themselves, and we need to help them as a society. And I often talk about how, while I was working on Rikers, some of my patients most of my patients were found unfit to stand trial and they had to go to an OMH facility to be restored to fitness. And I remember when they would come back. They came back completely different people because they were medicated, they were not locked in, they were able to participate in group and I always say I was able to have a coherent conversation. They were unrecognizable.

Speaker 2:

And it's just like any other medical condition. If you have diabetes, you have to take medications for it, just like with mental illness, with certain mental illness, like schizophrenia and other disorders, like schizophrenia and other disorders, when individuals may commit a crime or do something like it's not because they really want to. First of all, they may be off their medications. They may be experiencing auditory or visual hallucinations. A lot of my, all of my patients that I spoke to on Rikers Island, they all told me when they were arrested for the crime. All of them were off their medications and, like I said, I'm not saying that every person with schizophrenia commits a crime, but they were off their medications. They were living on the street, homeless, riding the train, no supports, no help. Is riding the train no support, no help. We as a society, if we really care about community safety and we want everyone to be safe, we have to help these individuals.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and a lot of these people are in their late teens or mid-20s. They're just developing it. I was told the other day that it's from 12 to 24 that it first starts to show up with these individuals. A lot of them aren't even on medications because they don't even realize that they have a problem yet. So how do we get it across to people? Like you said, this is not something they decided to do. This is something that evolved as they grew older, because sometimes it takes years for it to come out and then by that time it's developed into, unfortunately, a real problem.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like I said, just education, because I find that people are not educated about mental illness and don't really understand it and, like you said, only see certain things on the media. They have so many misconceptions. So, working with this population, I tried to address those misconceptions and just educate them and, like I said, talk about I often talk about, especially when I'm advocating for mental health treatment that mental health treatment does work, because I've seen my patients come back completely different. A lot of them didn't even remember the way they were acting when they were off their medications. Completely different people. So it's not that like when they're off their medications, this is who they are. No, because, like, I've seen them be completely different people and I've seen my patients be very sorry about the things they've done and they were genuine about things they did when they were off their medication. So it's not like this is who this person is. No, this is what happens when the person is off their medication. But they do have potential and, like I said, I've seen it.

Speaker 2:

I could read my eyes. There was a time where, right before I left Rikers, I went on somebody else's unit to talk to a staff and a patient came up to me and he was like hey, do you remember me? And I was like no, I'm sorry, what is your name? And he told me his name and I could not believe it who I was talking to, because when he was on my unit he was locked in, he was screaming, cursing me out, and he went to OMH. He came back and we were able to have a conversation and he was like yes, I'm going to stay on my medication. I took my medication when I was in treatment and it helped and like very motivated to continue. A completely different person.

Speaker 1:

What's some of the biggest challenges you may come across when you go out to speak Various rallies that you might be doing when you're speaking at it. What's some of the challenges that people might ask you that you have to explain to them because they just don't understand you, that you have to explain to them because they just don't understand. They might not have it in their family or they might just be starting to address a situation that just developed in their family.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think what comes up often is people say they shouldn't have committed this crime and they wouldn't be in jail. They shouldn't have done what they did. That comes up so often because people justify it, because they don't want to feel bad for the individual or have any empathy for the individual. So they justify and say these are the consequences. This person committed a crime. Once again, I have to educate them like, yes, they did, and we're not the judge or the jury.

Speaker 2:

Nobody is saying that it's okay to commit crimes, but we're working on prevention because eventually these individuals will be returning to the community. So just educating them about that and the mental illness that like, yes, they committed a crime, but they were not on their medications, they were sleeping on the train. I had so many patients say they were sleeping on the train. I had so many patients say they were sleeping on the train because they did not want to stay in the shelter. So it's a little bit more complicated than just committing a crime. There's more that goes into it and, like I said, if we really want our communities to be safe, we need to help these individuals so that this doesn't continue to happen. So when they're released they're not released to the same type of environment where they can commit another crime.

Speaker 1:

Do you help people so when they do get out they might have a chain of people that they can work with that can help them make that transition from prison life into society, Transition from prison life into society.

Speaker 2:

So right now I don't. So I work with individuals who are arrested but not arraigned. But before I worked on Rikers, I worked with people on parole. So they were just coming home and they were mandated to treatment. So that's what we did. We would connect them to a lot of different supports because a lot of times they didn't have the support and had to live in a shelter because they were mandated to live in a shelter, didn't have a job. Some of them have been away for a very long time, so we would help them with getting a job or help them with getting a appointment to see a psychiatrist, to see a therapist, and help them navigate all of that and remind them of that and remind them of those important appointments that they have.

Speaker 1:

Okay, you've pretty much done it all. You've worked with people before they go into prison, you've worked with them when they've been in prison, and then you've worked with them after they've been released from prison. With everything that you've done consisting of all three phases of it, which one was most fulfilling for you?

Speaker 2:

That is a hard, hard question. Working with people on parole. I did it for 11 years and I absolutely loved it because I think there were so many misconceptions and still are about this population and I met so many incredible people that have overcome so much just being in prison and then coming out and reintegrating. I love that job. I really loved working on Rikers. I loved working with the patients. I didn't like what I was seeing being done to them, but I loved working with the people that were incarcerated there and I really enjoyed this.

Speaker 2:

I don't know, I don't know. It's so hard to say. I knew that I would be working within this field so I would never switch to another field and work with me Children or families. I knew it was going to be in this field and that's why, when I was looking for another job, I applied to this job because I wasn't going to just leave Rikers and go work as just a therapist somewhere in an outpatient clinic. I knew that I wanted to work within the criminal legal system, but I love all parts of it.

Speaker 1:

That's really good that you love what you do. That's just awesome. You brought up a change that happened in Rikers because of what you had done. Is there anything that you see on the cusp of change that you've been advocating for?

Speaker 2:

Certain laws that we're trying to pass. I think we have a good chance of it. I've been a part of it. These laws have been tried to be changed for years, but I think definitely me coming out and my story has made an impact and hopefully will help the law to become law. It's not just because of me, like there's been advocates who have been working on this for a long time, but I think me sharing my story will help, because I do talk about how there is no mental health treatment in a jail and that's why we need to invest the money that we are investing in jails into mental health treatment. But those things take time. Immediate impact that I had, like I said, just having those individuals not be locked in and then being investigated. The investigation is also going to take a long time. So that has definitely made an impact, but all the other things that I am working on is going to take time.

Speaker 1:

That's right. Nothing in the legal system of legislation will happen very quickly.

Speaker 2:

But I'm happy to be a part of it. We're also working me and some other advocates are working to pass a bill that would mandate all healthcare professionals to report any abuse that they see. And I think that would be amazing when that bill gets passed, because I remember working on Rikers there was no agency that I could call to report what I'm seeing and I was very shocked by that because I worked in outpatient. We would call the justice center and I was so surprised, like we're mandated reporters and we see people being abused and like we don't call anyone so they investigate.

Speaker 2:

I'm a part of that effort and when there are conferences or speaking engagements, like I talk about my experience and how, I would love to have an agency that I would be able to report to what I saw and I think if that was in place then I probably would have still been working there. I had to leave and report it to the media because there was nowhere else to report it to. If a child is being abused, we contact CPS but there's no format, there's no organization, that agency that we call when we see abuse happen in jails and prisons. I think that would make such a big difference for me. I'm working with the other advocates to help pass that bill, but that's going to take time.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a great thing that you're doing, but that's going to take time. I think that's a great thing that you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Now, what do you think is important that the listeners should know about everything that you're trying to do now? I really think that we need to rethink how we provide treatment for people with a mental illness. That jail or prison is not the place for them and we're not saying that like they shouldn't face consequences, but these individuals do need treatment and they should not be in a jail or a prison because, no matter how great the jail or the prison is, at the end of the day it's still a jail and it's still a prison and that's not the place for these individuals and that's not the place for these individuals and, like I said, they are coming out to the community. We can't just throw away the key.

Speaker 2:

And I think also, what I found through this, my whole experience, is how, like, really powerful your voice is, because going into this, I never imagined that all of this would happen. I didn't think my story was so big and me speaking out would have an impact. It did. I think anytime we do see any type of abuse, any type of mistreatment, we need to speak out about it, because there were people that work on Rikers, people that left, and nobody spoke about it. And I did and it did have an impact. Our voice does matter and we can make an impact. Some people say, oh, these systems, they're never going to change, we shouldn't even try. No, our voice does matter and we can make an impact.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so true. All we have to do is speak up loudly. This has been awesome A lot of great information, great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.

Speaker 2:

No, thank you so much. Every time I get an opportunity to speak about and educate more people. That's why I do this work.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I agree, that's what it's all about is education. Thanks again, it's all about is education. Thanks again. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, me the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.