Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental condition that affects millions of people worldwide.
It is characterized by difficulties in social interaction, communication, and repetitive behaviors.
Although autism is becoming more widely recognized, there is still a lack of understanding and awareness surrounding the condition.
As a result, many individuals and families affected by autism struggle to find the support and resources they need.
Why Not Me The World podcast aims to bridge that gap by providing valuable information and insights into autism, fostering empathy and understanding, and promoting acceptance and inclusion.
Nashville based Music Producer Tony Mantor explores the remarkable impact his guests make by empowering their voices in spreading awareness about autism and helping break down the barriers of understanding.
Join Mantor and his guests as they delve into the world of autism and mental health to explore topics such as diagnosis, treatment, research, and personal stories.
Together, we can create a more informed and compassionate society for individuals with autism.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Judge Kim Taylor:A Judge's Journey with Autism
Judge Kim Taylor shares her journey as a pioneering female judge and mother of a son with autism, revealing how personal experience fueled her advocacy for autism awareness in the criminal justice system.
Her work began after learning about Sidney Templeton, a young man with autism who died in police custody due to officers' lack of understanding about his condition.
• First woman elected as district court judge in Alexander-Iredell-Davie County in 1986
• Created a task force that made autism training mandatory for North Carolina law enforcement
• Developed educational resources including "Autism in the Criminal Justice System" video
• Expanded advocacy through "Safe and Sound" committee with the Autism Society of America
• Advocating for national legislation for more uniform autism training across jurisdictions
• Emphasizes prevention and diversion programs over incarceration for those with autism
• Identifies the need for compassion and understanding in the legal system
• Won her initial election by just 75 votes across four counties
• Highlights how perspective changes when issues affect someone personally
Tell everyone everywhere about Why Not Me: The World, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.
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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)
Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Humanity Over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event.
Speaker 1:Today we have the pleasure of hosting Judge Kim Taylor. She began her career in private practice before running for a judicial position. Notably, she was the first woman to run for that position. After believing that she had lost the election, she discovered the next day she had won the election by a mere 75 votes over four counties. As a mother of an autistic son, judge Taylor is a passionate advocate for autism support. It's an honor to have her share her inspiring story with us. I appreciate you coming on. Can you tell us how you came to help autistic people when they came in front of you during your sessions at court?
Speaker 2:Well, I was elected district court judge in Alexander-Irving-Davidson County in 1986. At that time I had one child who did not have autism. In 1987, my second child was born. His name is Garrett and he was born in April of 87. We hadn't heard much about what autism was at that point, so we were just trying to find resources and try to figure out what help he needed and how he was going to be as he grew older. We did the hearing test, neurological test and such, and eventually an organization called TEACH it's T-E-A-C-C-H which is part of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill did testing and told us that he had autism and of course this was around age three. So at that point we tried to get some school resources in place. There weren't any resources in Alexander County, north Carolina, at the time, but I have a sister-in-law who was director of exceptional children's programs and she was able to get some things in place. Now, of course, we have a lot more people on the spectrum and they have classroom for people with autism people on the spectrum and they have classroom for people with autism.
Speaker 2:As he grew older, he became eventually self-injurious. Around the age of 11, he started hitting himself, hurting himself a lot. I would be called from the bench and you got to come get him from school. He'd hit himself and you know it was just pretty terrible. I continued on the bench. I can't recall if I was in Superior District I think I was a Superior Court judge at the time but my husband was working as a deputy sheriff in Iredell County and told me after his work shift that he believed someone with autism had died in police custody.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's pretty serious. What'd you find out?
Speaker 2:We were very concerned, upset about it and we got the details of what happened. His name was Sidney Templeton. He was in his early 20s and had a caregiver in Stateful North Carolina and apparently he had a meltdown with the caregiver because they thought because his medication had changed or something had happened in his environment that caused him to have a meltdown. She called 911. Officers went out, didn't understand. She told them, we believe at the scene she told them that he was autistic and couldn't speak. But they didn't know what autism was. They thought in fact somebody told us that they thought she said autistic.
Speaker 2:We thought then well, we've got to do something to educate versus fine law enforcement.
Speaker 2:You know people that might run into our kids and not know what's going on with them.
Speaker 2:So we were able to get a task force together involving law enforcement.
Speaker 2:We had people from the Autism Society, we had district attorneys, we had a broad range of people really that were willing to work with us and we were able to get a joint task force with the North Carolina legislature, who we met periodically, you know, and had presentations from various interested parties and were able to develop some plans and some changes that we can make. We were able to get basic law enforcement training to make it mandatory that people going into law enforcement would get training about autism, and it's my understanding that they still have to have annual training classes. I'm not sure that they're as good as we would like them to be, but they do have some training at least to recognize what the word is and how somebody might act. We were able to do a video. It's called Autism in the Criminal Justice System, available through Dennis DeBalt, which is his company is Legacy Productions, and the video is available through him, although the state of North Carolina paid the production video but he can. He sells the DVD.
Speaker 1:That sounds great. What does it cover?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's about an autistic.
Speaker 2:We had a real autistic person who was charged with some sort of online pornography or distributing pornography, which is kind of a typical offense, as autistic males generally get older and they think that something that's on TV or comes on the Internet is okay to watch, and so they don't really understand that it's illegal to be watching that stuff or sending it or anything.
Speaker 2:So we did the video and basically went through some explanation how someone on the spectrum might act and that they have difficulty with eye contact, some difficulty with understanding instructions and can even get you know, defensive or aggressive at times, you know when they feel they're under threat. We've continued to try to educate law enforcement and still have some pretty bad incidents happening. Hopefully we've made some difference, but one of the things that we did and we expanded this group to the Autism Society of America and it became a committee called Safe and Sound through the Autism Society of America and we had representatives from all over the country working with us on Safe and Sound and going around doing trainings and developing training materials and such, and a lot of those people are still out there, as I understand. They're still out there working.
Speaker 1:That's good to hear. Are the first responders the ones that still seem to be out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of these folks are first responders, law enforcement, who have kids on the spectrum and who kind of made it their life's purpose to try to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is great, but I wish we had more resources and I wish we had a more national legislation, if that makes sense, because it's spotty, it's here and there, virginia is trying to do stuff, everybody's trying to do their own thing, and I wish we had something more uniform.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I've spoken with two former House of Representatives. They say national legislation is needed. Yeah good, I think there's a state senator in Florida that's trying to get some local legislation as well. I do agree with you, though. We need more national legislation so that way it's not just local spots around the country.
Speaker 2:Right right. The thing about it is, say there's a bad incident and somebody with autism is hurt or killed in a law enforcement custody or you know, with any first responder. It hurts the family of that person. The law enforcement officer or whoever the individual is that you know is involved with the scenario, is usually damaged by it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So we're not trying to punish anybody, we're just trying to educate you so that you don't run into a situation don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what this podcast is about. It's about talking with people like yourself judges, lawyers and anyone that works within the legal system. It's not about pointing fingers at anyone, just trying to give information so it can be better for everyone and make the system work that much smoother.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and that's a wonderful thing and one of the first things I think I would tell anybody your 911 system, emergency communications, if they have information that tells you, oh, there's someone in that household that may have autism. Whoever goes needs to know that right up front so that when they go they know what to expect and you know the person they have women to eye contact and verbal ability and such. I think we've got that in place pretty much around most of North Carolina.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing. The more people know, the better things are.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:So are you still active? I know that you're an emergency judge still. Are you still involved with all these agencies that you was working with to help the autistic people?
Speaker 2:Well, here's what happened. I've become I guess it's probably happened to a lot of parents as your child gets older and they don't go to school. Somebody has to be with them at least with my son, sure and so I've had to back off a lot of the outside things I do, because I'm taking care of him a lot, but I do still try to stay involved and that has helped a lot with that because it's just making me do things and I think he's doing a whole lot, you know for at least in North Carolina and nationally. So I'm working some with him. And then I have taken emails and calls from parents trying to help them with resources and such. I'm not traveling around like I used to to do training, although if the internet was dead or maybe I could.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the internet has definitely made the world a lot smaller. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's not so good, but, as they say, it's better than nothing.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, if you got to communicate, you know, with someone in, say, England.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I talk with a lot of people across the pond.
Speaker 2:You don't necessarily have to go there. You could actually, you know, join some sort of a website or a meeting, zoom meeting or something. So that does help with that. And the funny thing is, I don't know if you've seen this, but everybody's got the same problem. If you talk to a parent, say in Australia, their problems are the same as ours, kind of a universal thing that's happening in larger and larger numbers.
Speaker 1:Yes, I get a chance to talk with people from all around the world. I had a lady ask me just the other day of all the people that I talk with, what do I find that's different from country to country. My answer was pretty much nothing. Everyone has about the same story. The only difference is in the place that they live and how their countries or areas support autism and how their countries or areas support autism.
Speaker 2:I think that's wonderful that you're getting ideas from other parts of the world, because sometimes we feel out here in North Carolina we don't feel that we're getting all that information, so it's great that you're doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this podcast has worked out well Now since you started as a judge up until now. What are some of the things that you see different in how people are handling autism?
Speaker 2:Well, you have the crisis intervention teams, which is great, and some of the larger towns and cities have very well turned avert someone with special needs into help rather than jail or prison. I was a member of the board of the Disability Rights of North Carolina, which is a federal organization, and one of the primary goals of that group is to see how many people with disabilities are being incarcerated and wrongfully being incarcerated, because whatever they did was related to their disability, not due to any mental intention to hurt anybody. So I worked with them for a long time years, also seeing that people with autism are getting a whole lot better resources at an early age, and I think that really helps, you know, for them to become verbal and, you know, going to school, and I had one client I represented, the mom. That young man graduated from college recently and is doing great. He's going to be a beneficial person for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now you had compassion as a judge because you lived it. How do you think we can get across to other judges, district attorneys, adas, so that we can show them that this is not just a black or white situation? There's a lot of gray area in the middle and they need to help figure this thing out for everyone.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's a great question it's very difficult At least I was also head of the education committee for district court judges and people are fighting for a little bit of time to come to the judges and make presentations. We only have conferences every well, twice a year. So the best thing we could do, I think, as far as education, would be to develop something that goes out, that people will watch, that's on point with their job, that they think is relevant. And well, sometimes you got to make people watch stuff sadly. But I think these professionals for the most part the judges that I know I guess you can become really mean and angry, but a lot of people at law school and into judicial system because they want to help people and if you could show them that this is helping and this is not, you know, somebody just made up this diagnosis so they can get out of something, because I think that's what there are a lot of skepticism out there. You know you've got autism right.
Speaker 1:Right. I've heard that before. There's a judge down in Miami. He just retired. He works with a facility, it just happens to be very large. His opinion is, if you can take and put them in a facility where they can get treatment, the chances of that same person showing up in front of a judge again is rare. So he believes that this is the best way to work. The system is by helping them and diverting them to care facilities.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's true of a lot of different diagnosis. And even you know people with addiction problems. So yeah, actually I certainly agree with that. And even you know people with addiction problems, um, so yeah, actually I certainly agree with that. And you know, if you stick somebody in prison here in north carolina, they might not get any kind of help for years, and then they come out and they're.
Speaker 1:Nothing has caused them not to do what it was they did before do you see, or have you seen the judges in your area starting to see what's going on and want to help some of these people that need the help, such as autistic people and those with mental health issues?
Speaker 2:I have seen more open-mindedness about it because a lot of people have somebody or know somebody that has autism. It's so prevalent now and you know I can go and speak to a room full of lawyers and judges and usually I can ask them, you know, raise your hand if you know somebody on the autism spectrum or have a relative you know.
Speaker 1:and three-fourths, of the room will raise their hand Right.
Speaker 2:So I think in that sense people are more understanding when it hits them at home, Judges are just like any other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Lawyers and judges are just like any other group of people and you've got to show them. I think that this is going to help not only your profession, but also the people who are affected by autism and their families. And, as you say, if you're concerned about resources, it certainly helps to divert people from the jails and prisons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly what do you see happening now? You've been on the bench. You still are on the bench, even though it's an emergency judge. You see all these things that are happening in the country with autism and mental health. What do you think actually needs to happen for everything to take a turn and start to change?
Speaker 2:Well, the situation in our country right now to me is pretty scary, because it seems to me that compassion people are not doing anything based on compassion or attempting to help other people, and I don't know what you do, other than try to elect somebody that does have those qualities, because right now, it seems that a lot of the folks that we're putting into government are just concerned about promoting themselves or some monetary, you know, issue yeah, I agree, compassion is something that's needed yeah, I'm not seeing much of it how do you see making the legal system a little more tolerant?
Speaker 1:You've been tolerant. You know judges that have been tolerant. How do we expand that?
Speaker 2:Judges are elected here. They're elected. You know, partisan elections. We used to have nonpartisan but partisan elections. What you've got to do is make it part of their platform, and part of the way you get elected is to show people that you have the ability to understand what's different between right and wrong. You know what's going to make your society safer, what's going to save your society resources. You know what's going to keep people from coming back to the courthouse and courtroom over and over, because I can tell you I have sentenced people. I've done it for so long. I've sentenced people and then sentenced their grandparents and their grandchildren.
Speaker 2:It's sad that you see this. I guess a lot of it depends on where you are, geographically also, because if you grew up in a metropolitan area like, for example, I grew up in the Triangle, which is Raleigh-Durham-Capitol Hill, and you know there are a lot of different folks there, you know it's a lot of university people, educated people, people of all different walks of society and I grew up with that kind of environment. But somebody that grows up, say, in rural North Carolina or maybe rural Tennessee, it doesn't see anybody except the people that are like them. You know they only see the people that look like him, talk like they do, you know, and and they don't expand their beliefs and they don't expand their horizons to understand why other people do things the way they do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's uh, the world has become smaller, you know so. So it's one of those things where, where we have to take and and learn from other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do, we do and I'm not lost hope because, as I say, even when we did this thing back in 2005 with the legislature, I had district attorneys and law enforcement, all these folks that were wanting to help and wanting to be a part of our educational efforts, so it wasn't as bad as you might think. It seems to me, once you get people on an individual basis to care versus a large group of people, that I don't care. I'm wrong, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree that comes a lot from understanding. I think more that we put out there so that people can understand, I think more that we put out there so that people can understand, hopefully the more people will change their attitude and be willing to help.
Speaker 2:That's true. That's true. And judges and VAs, you know we focus so much on consequences, but let's focus some on preventative measures. You know, what can we do to divert this from the court system?
Speaker 1:What would you like to tell people that they need to hear, about autism, about the legal system, some of the things that you think are real important, that you've done, or others?
Speaker 2:have done that people should hear. I think probably the most important thing is to open your mind to differences among people and if you're going to be working with the public, and especially in the court system, where you're making life-changing decisions for people and for families, you need to understand what these terms mean. If you hear the word, you know autism, you need to know that it's a developmental disability. People don't get cured of it. They can do better and function better, but they're not going to be cured. And if they actually have the diagnosis, there are certain things similar among folks on the spectrum and in your mind too possibilities.
Speaker 2:I think that this was true back five or six years ago, maybe still true. We had the University of North Carolina have a program to diagnose and try to train classroom teachers, for example, about how to deal with my own spectrum, and so the military started sending people with families with someone on spectrum to North Carolina and we just had a large influx of people coming here. You know that needed these resources. I've been told, and I'm not sure it's true, but I've been told that other states now are advanced over North Carolina. I don't know how do you make people have incentive to care. I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately we are a country. It's not a problem until it's a problem for our family.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of people think. We just have to find a way to get them out of that mindset.
Speaker 2:I'll give you an example of that, because I've seen it personally. Somebody you know. You talk to people out driving while impaired. Oh, put them in jail, shoot them, blah, blah, blah. And then it's their son or their uncle or somebody in their family. Oh, but he's a nice guy and you're exactly right, Nobody cares until it affects their family and their lives. And autism can happen in anybody's family.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Autism can happen to anyone's family. It can be rich, it can be poor. It doesn't choose.
Speaker 2:That's fine.
Speaker 1:Before we close this out, I'm curious on how you actually got involved in the legal system.
Speaker 2:Well, I went to undergrad at Duke and I wanted to go to medical school. My mom was a registered nurse and my dad was a scientist. Didn't really like the chemistry and when I got out of school I went and worked for Social Security Disability. That was the worst job ever. I did that for a year in a cubicle where you have to tell people they can't get disability and I try to convince you to turn them down. So then I decided I'm going to go to law school. I loved law school. A lot of people didn't like it, but I loved it. I was there with the people that understood me and how I thought I really loved it. And still my associate was most attorneys. They're not bad people.
Speaker 1:When you graduated law school, did you go directly into the court system or did you start a private practice?
Speaker 2:When I got out of law school I married a guy from up here in Alexander County and we started law practice together and I did just about everything. In a solo law practice or small practice like that you can't really specialize. So I was doing criminal defense, family law too. I would do title searches and thieves and such, learned a lot. Uh, that was when I was 25. And then when I was 30 I ran for district court judge position.
Speaker 2:That was open up here and no woman had ever run for it before up here. The guy that was running against me, um, he came to me he said well, is this really not your turn? You're only 30 years old, you know. You know it's really. You know you need to wait. And I said, no, I'm gonna do it. And I won by 75 votes with four counties, and the night of the election the newspaper published that my opponent had won. I went to bed thinking that he won and then the next morning, one precinct in Arnold County, the sheath had broken and they came through with me and I won.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Wow, that's a great story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. It's all the first female jack up here in either district or peer court. There are a lot of them now and I'm glad about it because I think sometimes, you know, it helps that women have had to experience discrimination and such.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Plus, you have an autistic son that gives you actual insight on what people go through on a daily basis actual insight on what people go through on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know how you really educate people about what's going to be happening. I probably didn't say that very well, but if you live in a large city, you might have a place where your adult son can go to some sort of a work job and some sort of you sort of place where they're safe but they're with other people. There's nothing much up here in rural Western North Carolina and it seems like there's less now. There never was.
Speaker 1:This has been great Great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you for asking me in. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I think it's going to be wonderful and maybe you can write a book or a few books about it.
Speaker 1:Well, you never know about that. Thanks again. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why not me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.