Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

BONUS EPISODE: Mike Ghesser: A Father's Mission to Transform the World for Neurodiverse Individuals

• Tony Mantor

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Imagine meeting a neurologist who changes not only your perspective but the entire trajectory of your family's journey. 
That's precisely what happened to Mike Ghesser, co-founder of CleanLogic, when his daughter Rosie was diagnosed with a neurodiverse condition at just three months old. 
In this heartfelt episode, we explore how that pivotal moment led Mike and his wife to become devoted, therapy-focused parents, ultimately inspiring the creation of CleanLogic—a company that champions inclusivity by offering meaningful employment opportunities to individuals with disabilities.

Our conversation continues with a deep dive into the world of inclusive education. 
Mike shares his family's experiences moving from Los Angeles to Philadelphia to find the best resources for Rosie, highlighting the power of an educational environment where students with disabilities learn alongside their neurotypical peers. 
Through these stories, we emphasize the importance of focusing on abilities rather than differences and the broader societal changes needed to foster true inclusivity and accessibility in everyday life. 

Finally, we explore how Mike's personal journey has translated into groundbreaking employment initiatives at CleanLogic. 
Driven by a partnership with Isaac Shapiro and inspired by Rosie's progress, Mike discusses how the company has adapted roles to leverage the unique skills of individuals with disabilities. 
From sewing to manufacturing, we showcase the potential unlocked when people are given the right opportunities and support. 
This episode is a powerful testament to the transformative impact of shared experiences and the stories that inspire us to believe in our capacity to change the world, one inclusive action at a time.

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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me, the World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me the World. Today we have the pleasure of hosting Mike Gesser, co-founder of CleanLogic. Driven by his daughter Rosie's neurodiverse experience, clean Logic has developed a commitment providing inclusive opportunities for individuals with disabilities. His story is captivating and I'm delighted to have him on the show. Thanks for coming on. Sure, what started your journey of helping autistic people and special needs? Sure?

Speaker 2:

Interesting story. So I have three daughters, my oldest, rosemary. She's 11 years old. Interesting story. So I have three daughters, my oldest, rosemary. She's 11 years old. When she was born, at about three months old, we discovered that she was disabled. She is physically disabled and intellectually disabled and neurodiverse, and me being a first time parent at the time I had no idea what that meant. My wife was very quick to recognize missed milestones or things like that. She had an indication and I was just like, oh, you know, I didn't know anything. But she started to point it out and I said, okay, well, whatever, she'll be fine. The older she got, the more we kind of started to see things, the more I realized that, okay, well, there are some differences.

Speaker 2:

There was an incident that happened when she was three months old. I was at work one day and my wife called me frantically. I answered the phone and she's like Rosie's having her name is Rosie, she's Rosie's having a seizure and I'm like well, call 911. So I called 911. I said I'll be home soon. When I got home she was getting into an ambulance on the way to the hospital. Fortunately we lived close to the hospital. We lived in Los Angeles at the time.

Speaker 2:

In West Hollywood there's a hospital called Cedars-Sinai, not too far away. When I got home she was being put into the ambulance and fire department was there and they're like follow us to the hospital. When we got there and they ran a bunch of tests. It wasn't a seizure, fortunately, it was a rare neurological disorder. What was interesting about that experience for us we were there for a few days is there was a doctor, a very well-known child neurologist that we finally got to see child neurologist that we finally got to see. Her name is Dr Naparko. She came into our room and examined our daughter and she said something that I'll never forget, that really kind of shaped who I am, what I do, why I do the things that I do today. And she said she looked at my wife and she said listen, she goes, you're not going to be a soccer mom, you're going to be a therapy mom. And she did it in. She was matter of fact and it was. It was rough to hear at the time, but she was right, she was a hundred percent right.

Speaker 1:

That's tough to hear, for sure. So once you heard that from the doctor, what was your next steps?

Speaker 2:

Immediately after we got out of the hospital we started looking at therapies for my daughter and we got her physical therapy and occupational therapy and we put her in an early intervention program. A little while later at UCLA hospital. It was there that I started to see Rosie make a lot of progress, and it was there that I started to see Rosie make a lot of progress and it was there that I started to see her around her peers. There were a lot of other children there with all disabilities. There were children on the spectrum, there were Down syndrome children, children with other physical disabilities, mobility issues, you name it. That's where I started to see they were still able to do the same things that typical children were doing. They were just doing them a little bit differently. They would, you know, they would have equipment accessibility. You know my daughter part of her condition is she was she's low muscle tone and so she had difficulty sitting and then standing and they had like a stander that she would use to help her strengthen her muscles, all sorts of things like that.

Speaker 1:

With all that happening. How was it affecting you? What was your thought process moving forward?

Speaker 2:

I started to think about her future, right Like I knew that she was going to be disabled and even though she was still young I didn't know what that looked like. But I started thinking about seeing, like the early intervention, but what does kindergarten look like and what does elementary school look like, in middle school and high school, and ultimately, what's after that? Right, where, when they graduate high school, where do they go? I run a company and I'm very like entrepreneurial and a planner. So I started to look into the future for my daughter but specifically, like, where do people with disabilities go afterwards? And there's a lot of programs, there's a lot of things that they have.

Speaker 2:

But I wasn't able to find something that I felt, from a parent's perspective, that was right for my daughter. And, granted, she's at the time two, three years old. Today she's 11 and she's not even close to being out in the workforce or anything. But I immediately went into like planning. Several years later, we moved from Los Angeles to Philadelphia. That's where we started to put together essentially what I thought was a company, my company Clean Logic that was an accessible and inclusive environment for people with all different kinds of disabilities intellectual, physical, people on the spectrum, things like that, and that's kind of how my daughter created the inspiration in me, my purpose to do what I do today.

Speaker 1:

That's a great story. Now you mentioned school. Was she in private school, public school? How did you set that up so that she was able to integrate with other kids, so not to be in isolation because of her situation?

Speaker 2:

Good question. So our daughter's always been in public schools, the early intervention program at UCLA in Los Angeles. I don't remember exactly how we got there, but we got a reference and it was, I want to say, a program through insurance or through the school, through UCLA, the college to a public school in our neighborhood. We lived in Studio City at the time, amazing school, dixie Canyon Elementary, and they had a I think it was called the. It's called the PALS program Preschool for All Learners. It was public and it was very well run. After she was going to go into kindergarten that's when we moved out to.

Speaker 1:

Philadelphia. That's interesting. Was there a specific reason why you moved to Philadelphia?

Speaker 2:

The reasons we moved out here. We actually live in the suburbs. We wanted to move to a suburb called Tredyffrin Easttown that school district because they had an amazing program for Rosie and for her needs. We put her in the public school in Tredyffrin East Town. That program is even more amazing than the one that we were in in Los Angeles. My expectation is she'll continue to go to public schools in Tredyffrin in our school district. They just have a very incredible focus on integration. She's in a life skills program, teaching her life skills but also putting her into the classrooms with typical children. She has a very good mix. She gets the therapies that she needs, she learns her life skills and then she participates in classes with all the other children.

Speaker 1:

That's a great thing for sure. How is it working for your daughter when schools integrate autistic people, people with mental health disabilities, anything like that? It really is confusing for some of the kids and even for some of the teachers because they don't understand it. But the kids definitely don't understand sometimes and that can create some issues within the classroom. So how is that working out for her, with how you've handled it so far?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it actually worked out incredibly well, and I think this has a lot to do with the program that they have at the school. It's not just about putting a child with special needs in a class with neurotypical or able bodied children. They educate them, they tell them you know who the student is and what their disability is, and they teach them about disabilities early on so it's not like you know it's. They normalize it as much as possible. My daughter has a one on one that's with her all the time to help with that transition. I mean, she's obviously different than everybody else is, but she's not treated differently. I think that's one of the things that I think successful programs do well is it's something that's always part of the educational process, not just for the student with disabilities, but for every single student, and accessibility is huge within those schools, and I think it's about not making it a special thing and making treating every child just as they're the same.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean. Absolutely. I think that's just a great way to look at things. Unfortunately, we don't live in a society that accepts that the way it should.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But it's something that definitely needs to be taught for sure. I agree. The school system actually is the perfect place if they work together, show these kids that anyone with disabilities are exactly the same. They just handle things a little bit differently. They could create that bridge for future change it does it does.

Speaker 2:

I completely agree, and I think a lot of schools that are successful with this program do well, as they show that everybody has something to offer. Everybody has a voice, regardless of whether you're disabled or not. Everybody has something to teach another person. I think that's the foundation for it.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. It sounds like, to this point, everything has worked out pretty well for her so far. Worked out pretty well for her so far. When we have programs out there, we lay it out. We try and make it as comfortable, easy as possible with a good transition. But real life says there's going to be bumps in the road. What have you come across with bumps in the road that you didn't expect? And then, when they came up, what was your resolution to them? So that the people listening can hopefully gain from some of the things that you went through?

Speaker 2:

Sure, yeah, the biggest thing that kind of was an eye-opener for me is the world itself was not built for people with disabilities. You know, everywhere I go, I realize the obstacles that someone with a disability faces and while there's so many, you know, amazing pieces of accessibility that are brought up, you know, all over the place there's it's still, it's still difficult, it's still different. For example, going to the beach right, typical people can just go to the beach and walk to where you want to go, sit down on the sand. But my daughter has mobility issues and for a long time it was very difficult to be able to get her to where she needed to go on the sand. But my daughter has mobility issues and for a long time it was very difficult to be able to get her to where she needed to go on the beach. And I never realized what that was like until I'm having to get to the beach, things like that. But there's a wheelchair, for example, that's meant to be put on sand. That helps bring her to where she needs to go. But it's something extra.

Speaker 2:

Going out to dinner. There's ramps that allow you to move up, walk up to where you need to go, but sometimes when you're walking through a restaurant, the space between the tables just does not accommodate. So there's so many things that you do on a regular basis that without a disability, don't even realize and take for granted you can just go where we want. But once you're in that scenario it's just very difficult. I can't unsee things. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, completely. You just said it. We take things for granted here in the US and in places around the world. We go about our lives not thinking about anything. Unfortunately, we don't think about it until it affects us. Then, when it affects us, we are more compassionate and more understanding. But unfortunately it takes that to happen to us before we start taking action. Then, when it does affect us, the world becomes very scary. Then, when it does affect us, the world becomes very scary. We don't know what to do, what to do next, how things go, the process it can be very scary.

Speaker 1:

What would you tell a parent that's just finding out that their life is going to change? They have a child that's just been diagnosed and it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is. It could be autism, it could be mental health, it could be bipolar, it could be Down syndrome, MS, anything. Anything like that is very scary. The parent has to collect themselves, get their heads together, know what to do, and it's a tough road. What would you give them for advice so that they could kind of map out what to do? And it's a tough road. What would you give them for advice so that they could kind of map out what to do that best helps them and helps their child yeah you're never prepared for, for for this it's not.

Speaker 2:

Nobody goes and says I feel like having a special needs child. You know what I mean. But when it happens, like when you find out about it, it's kind of like an adjustment period. But I got to tell you it's the biggest blessing you'll ever get in your entire life. It took me a minute to accept this or realize how true it was, but God gives special babies to special parents. That might not be comforting to some people, depending on the severity of this disability of their child, but for me it was a realization and kind of opened my eyes up to seeing internally, like inside me, what I'm capable of doing as a father and the amount of love and patience and understanding that I never knew that I had to be able to give my child the best life possible and to have a kind of love that you don't know that could even create. The other thing that it helped me realize was what an opportunity a parent of a special needs child has to change the world right.

Speaker 2:

You're dealing with something, or you're exposed to something, or you're now part of this world that not everybody is. You will see the world differently, you will experience life differently. You will see other families, other children very, very differently, and not in a bad way. You see the world through a very different lens and it's an amazing lens to see the world through, but it gives you a superpower to go and advocate for your child and take care of your child, and by doing that you're changing the world. You're bringing awareness to things that the majority of the world doesn't see or experience. No one's going to argue with making the world a better place for kids, for adults, right, and like little things, accessibility, things. They're so important and it just needs more voices. It's going to make everybody's life better. You've been given a gift in a way. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. That's a great point. Now she's 11, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

What do you see for her in the next five years? She's going to be going through her teen years, which is tough for even neurotypical people. So what do you see for her through her teen years and then past that, once she gets out of high school? What's on the horizon for her? So?

Speaker 2:

she's incredibly smart and incredibly aware. The way I describe Rosie is she understands everything. Her input is incredible. She has difficulty with her output, whether that's speaking or whether that's walking or things like that, but there's so many types of accessibility options out there that help her become independent and successful right, and so I think for her, as she goes through school, she's learning how to use more and more of these tools. For example, technology is amazing what it can do.

Speaker 2:

She uses an AAC device to speak and as she gets older and works with the amazing team like her ability to communicate, whether it's through her AAC device or not, is mind-blowing to me, and I see her continuing to get better through practice. Her social skills like this kid is incredibly funny. She's a comedian, loving and sarcastic. For a kid that can't talk, it's amazing how much, how well, she's able to communicate. But she's going to go through school and continue to make friends and impact people and you know she'll advance, just like every other child advances, but in her own way. You know what I mean. Yeah, absolutely. The further along she goes in school, the more opportunities are going to open up to her.

Speaker 2:

I'd love to see her develop more of her interests. She loves technology and she loves electronics, which is interesting to me. It's fascinating and who knows what she'll end up doing with it. But every other 11-year-old 12-year-old continues to advance in school and pursue their interests. The education process where we live is pretty phenomenal. I haven't really looked yet at what colleges have for her, but if she wants to and she expresses interest in that, we're certainly going to do that. If she wants to work somewhere, I talk about how I created the accessibility within my business so one day she could work there. I don't know if she's ever going to want to work at my company. We have an interesting father-daughter relationship and I'm not so sure how that would work at the company. But whatever that kid wants to do, I'm going to support her and encourage her and give her all the tools that she needs to be independent and successful. However that looks yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1:

Now you mentioned your business. You started this business with the sole purpose of creating an environment for those with special needs that need help and need work. Can you expand on that a little?

Speaker 2:

Sure, it actually evolved into that today. Quick backstory my company is called Clean Logic and I have a business partner and his name is Isaac Shapiro. When I met him, he was my first exposure into the world of disabilities, and his mother is blind. When we first started working together, we created a nonprofit. What we wanted to do was take profits from our business and donate them to the nonprofit, from CleanLogic, and donate them to the nonprofit called Inspiration Foundation, and give adaptive technology awards to blind and visually impaired people who wanted to get back into the workplace. So we did that for a while and I was always thinking in the back of my mind why aren't we creating jobs? This is before I was married. This is before Rosemary was born. But I was always thinking like why don't we just create jobs? At the time our business was small and we were struggling and we weren't in the position. We didn't even have employees at the time, it was just him and I. But that was always lingering in the back of my mind. And then I met my wife. We had Rosemary until she was a couple of years old that I started to think what that looked like. That's when I started to plan. We just weren't in the position to really do anything then, and this was, you know, 2011, 12, 13, 14.

Speaker 2:

And in 2019 is when we moved from Los Angeles to the suburbs of Philadelphia and we opened up our own facility. Rather than outsourcing a lot of our work, we took it in house. And for me, that was the time that I knew that I could control how we built this program and I had a great team. Our business had grown significantly and had a great team that supported our vision. We were finally able to. I want to say it was the end of 2021, where we started working with Overbrook School of the Blind. They had a work experience program for some of their students and they came in a couple hours a week to get real life experience working in a company.

Speaker 2:

When I saw the fact that we could do this not just in theory, but in practice, that's when it kind of like the doors blew open. And what else can we do? And what else can we do and how can we create more jobs and what type of an impact is this doing? And originally we had gift sets and things that we wanted to put together for promotions, like little jobs, but then we started teaching skills, training skills, like our company, clean Logic, makes skincare tools like exfoliating towels and gloves and sponges and things like that, and we wanted to essentially not only create jobs for people with disabilities but bring jobs back to the United States.

Speaker 2:

Some of our products are made out of fabric and so we started to value added like manufacturing here, so where things were getting sewn at another factory, we would do the sewing here at our facility. And so we said well, let's see if they can sew. All the students were blind and or visually impaired and we said can you guys sew? And they're like well, let's give it a shot. And they did, and they were great at it. We then looked at OK, well, what else can we do? And so what we realized is there's nothing they couldn't do. We just needed to give them the opportunity. So it became one process and another process and another process and another process, and then we started opening it up to seeing more what we could do. And we started working with OVR, the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation in Pennsylvania, and they introduced us to job seekers.

Speaker 2:

And I sit on the board of an organization called Neurodiversity Employment Network and that's about connecting neurodiverse job seekers to employers. Since I'm an employer, it was easy for me to say, okay, well, let's create a job, let's give it a shot. And there's really no playbook, there's no right way to do it. Everybody's different and every job is different. But I think what made it easy for me was that here's my daughter, and I understand what her disability is and I understand what accessibility means and how it's helped her become more independent and successful.

Speaker 2:

And I looked at accessibility as an opportunity. So I brought it into the business. We would just try things and if it worked, great, let's try more. And if it didn't, we'd look at why didn't it work, what can we do differently or how can we fix this process to make it a little bit easier? And someone who's blind needs something different than someone who's on the spectrum or someone who has a physical disability. The only way you're going to know is to try, give the opportunity and then ask questions. That's the approach that we took and that's how we evolved with CleanLogic to do what we do today. And today we have 30 people with all different types of disabilities. We have 30 people with all different types of disabilities sewing, assembling, using, being machine operators. They're working in our office. They're processing orders. It's not just manufacturing, it's inside our office too. There are so many jobs that anybody can do anything, and that's the approach that we take.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. There are so many people that need help. I mean, if you look at just autistic people, 70 to 90% are either unemployed or underemployed. Correct, so what you're doing is open the doors for so many people, and that's just a great thing for everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know Clean Logic itself my business. Yes, I want to grow it and I want it to be a successful business and I want to create meaningful employment for people with disabilities and also people that don't have a disability. By doing this over the years, what it's kind of instilled in me is I want to show for profit businesses that you can hire people with disabilities and it's actually going to be a bigger benefit than you think and it's not as scary as you think. So, basically, what we're doing at CleanLogic is we're creating a model that I just want to share with people. It's not a secret, it's not something that I just want to like. This is how we do and you can't see it.

Speaker 2:

I want all for profit businesses to see what we're doing and say it's not difficult, it's not scary. Do you know what I mean? Because I think that that's how you can make significant and meaningful change in the world and that's what we're out to do.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and it's very inspiring. People like you hopefully, will show others that this can be done and if you can do it. It's the old saying I can do it if you can do it. So let's hope that this catches on in a very big way. With that said, I really appreciate you coming on. It's been great, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate what you're doing. I hope you get as big as Joe Rogan, because I think this is information and this is awareness that I think is so important. I look at what we're doing as changing the world. Right, I have such a big view and I'm not able to do it by myself, but people like you and other people that are in this space just a little bit more and more. At some point we're gonna make a big impact.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I truly believe so, and again, thanks for coming on. It's been great. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to tonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the World, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.