Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

Gabriella Russo: Embracing Self-Discovery and Advocacy in Autism – Overcoming Challenges and Building a Supportive Community

• Tony Mantor

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What if discovering your true self could transform your entire life journey? 
Join me, Tony Mantor, as I sit down with the insightful Gabriella Russo for a powerful discussion on self-discovery and acceptance within the autistic community. 
Gabriella shares her personal narrative, revealing how her godchild's involvement with an autism support group prompted her own recognition of being autistic. Through her candid reflections, she recounts overcoming challenges like an abusive marriage and workplace bullying, ultimately embracing her identity and finding solace in self-diagnosis and community support. 
Gabriella's story is a testament to the profound impact of understanding one's unique identity, especially when faced with a late autism diagnosis.

Together, Gabriella and I explore the broader landscape of neurodiversity and the importance of advocacy. 
We delve into the significance of self-diagnosis, the therapeutic journey to self-acceptance, and the often challenging path autistic individuals face in professional settings.
Discover how self-employment can serve as a refuge, harnessing personal strengths while avoiding burnout. 
Our conversation also highlights the critical need for comprehensive training in safeguarding, mental health, and neurodiversity to genuinely support neurodivergent individuals across their lifespan, addressing both their vulnerabilities and their strengths.

Finally, we touch on the complexities surrounding autism diagnoses later in life, particularly for women and people of color. 
Gabriella underscores the personal empowerment found in connecting with others who share similar experiences and stresses the importance of therapy and self-acceptance. 
As we wrap up, Gabriella shares how she engages with her audience through various platforms, emphasizing advocacy for the autistic community. 
We encourage listeners with compelling stories to reach out and perhaps join future episodes, fostering a space for support and continued advocacy.

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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me the World Podcast, hosted by Tony Maitour, broadcasting from Music City USA, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me the World. Today we are joined by Gabriela Russo, an expert with 25 years of experience in supporting organizations that cater to children, young people and families in the UK and internationally. Her work has taken her to primary and secondary schools, colleges and universities, where she helps ensure their safeguarding measures are up to date. Gabriella is passionate about creating a workplace culture that is inclusive, empathetic and compassionate. We're excited to share her inspiring story. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's my pleasure. How did you get involved with the autistic community?

Speaker 2:

So my godchild is autistic. When she was when they I'm sorry, they've just identified as non-binary and I'm still learning the language when they were much, much smaller, their mum belonged to an autistic support group for families of autistic children and she asked me to come along so I could get to know things and kind of learn things that would be useful for my relationship with my godchild. So I started going and then I started being like hang on, this is feeling a bit like it's describing me and this sounds familiar. And basically through that community came to a recognition of my own autism. That was about nine years ago now, and so I've stayed in that community since and that was really where the journey started. For me was actually that point. And when I turned around to my friend, I was like I think this might be me. She was like no, really, I kind of think you might be right. And everyone in the group was like yeah, you're definitely autistic. Why are you even questioning this?

Speaker 1:

Did you get a formal diagnosis of autism?

Speaker 2:

It's been a long journey for me actually. So I've got to be honest that initially when I started to recognize it, it really freaked me out. I was just learning about it myself. I've got a good history and some really traumatic things in my history. I was in an abusive marriage in a high control church, things like that and I think when I first started to recognize it, the things that were going through my head were those people my abusive husband those people were telling about oh there you go. We always thought she was a bit crazy. We were actually right in how we treated her. So it played into that for me took me quite a long time to really kind of go through that process of accepting it.

Speaker 2:

I was also struggling at work and as I start to work through it, I tried to be honest in my place of work and basically what happened there was I ended up being bullied out by my manager.

Speaker 2:

They sort of she came in with a bit of an agenda to get rid of me. Anyway, she was a new manager and started treating me really badly, doing all the things you don't do for someone who's autistic in the workplace, like micromanaging, setting up with difficult tasks, doing the sorts of things that really sort of set a lot of panic in for me and I started having panic attacks that I now recognize were kind of panic attack, stroke, meltdown type situations, and I ended up having to walk away from that job, and so I was then recovering from that, and so I am now in the process of getting diagnosed, which takes a long time here in the UK unless you've got the funds to pay for something private. I have a therapist who recognizes all of that I have doing those kinds of things. So whilst I'm not officially medically diagnosed, I'm definitely autistic.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'm in those communities, I'm surrounded, I've got a coach, I'm with all of those people and we're working it through and I'm waiting for the official diagnosis to happen working it through and I'm waiting for the official diagnosis to happen With everything that happened to you, finding that you're autistic, just the way that you did, the way that things seem to make sense with your husband and the people around you how did that affect you with your family and your interaction on a day-to-day basis? Did that change things for you? What happened after that?

Speaker 2:

I think it's a really interesting situation with your late diagnosis. When I say diagnosed, I count self diagnosis, because it is quite a difficult thing to get your full diagnosis medically. The later you're diagnosed in lots of respects, the more unpicking of what's happened in your life up till then kind of needs to take place, if that's what you want to do, right. So I've been doing that and it's helped me to recognize why I felt certain ways you know different situations, why I struggled with my friendships at school, why I often just felt like I was somehow different, I was too much. I went very deep very quickly with friendships. They meant a lot more. I got more hurt more easily and I struggled with those different things.

Speaker 2:

It's not to say I didn't have friends, but you know things weren't always easy. I was bullied throughout my primary school education, which is four to 11. Secondary school wasn't quite so bad. I did struggle at university. I mean I got through all of those things Like my education was fine in one sense, but I definitely struggled at university. And so what it's done is, as I've looked back, rather than kind of saying I was rubbish at that, I wasn't organized enough, I was the person who struggled with friendships. That makes me less than I've kind of gone. Okay, that's why and I'm different, not broken. So it's gradually unpicking those messages to myself and kind of what the world makes you feel about yourself.

Speaker 1:

That's a great way of looking at things. You've been able to reflect on your past, diagnose yourself a little bit in things that happened so that you could kind of make sense of them. With this all going on in your life, and you come into grips with everything that you need to. This has really helped your overall outlook on moving forward. I think that's a great thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and it's two things it's not just changing things, so it's actually going through self-acceptance. So I'm not changing who I am. I'm building my life in a way that works for me, which we're not always afforded the opportunity to do that. The world is set up in a way that it's difficult to do that. Work can be a difficult place to do that, and so I am gradually, messily, learning and changing how I live my life, what is acceptable to me, as well as the things I need to be aware of in terms of how I impact other people as well.

Speaker 1:

Sure, I've had the opportunity to speak with many people that have been late diagnosed. The greater percentage of those being late diagnosed were females.

Speaker 1:

Yeah being late diagnosed were females. The reason, they've told me, is they tend to mask more to fit in. So once you came to the conclusion that you are autistic, did you get a chance to look at yourself as an outsider looking at you, where you could reflect on things that you did, look at how you handled those things? And once you looked at yourself, did a deeper dive on some of the issues that you was having, did you find that you was masking as well?

Speaker 2:

Oh, 100%, absolutely definitely, and part of the therapeutic journey has been trying to find who I really am rather than who I've built myself to be to fit in. But yeah, oh, completely, I can see that. I mean, I used to. Even when I was a teenager and even a little bit younger than that, I used to be aware that I would be different depending on the people I was around. I didn't understand why. It was more like I'm afraid to kind of state my preferences in case they get rejected. And now I can see that that's masking, whereas before it was like I'm just not confident enough. I need some help with my confidence.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes sense. By doing this self-diagnosis while you're working with a therapist to get your diagnosis, have you found that this might have put you in a better place, more of your comfort zone, because you can accept what happened, accept what's going on now, so that you can use that to better move forward with your future?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I'm getting there. Some things I'm still working through, but no, absolutely I think I like myself a lot more. I'm able to recognize that people's opinions of me are their opinions of me rather than the truth of me. I was very much people pleasing, trying to keep the peace, trying to to fit in, which set me up for some difficult friendships and probably set me up for, you know, some of some of the more traumatic things I've gone through, not in a victim blaming way, but in you have to recognize your own stuff as well. And now I'm a little bit kind of less accepting of people wanting me to be what fits them without it being like I just know who I am and everyone can get lost because I'm wonderful. I'm not saying that, but there's kind of an equality to it that there didn't used to be.

Speaker 1:

Sure, sure. What are some of the things that you still struggle with? You may be still working on it, trying to fix it so that you can still accept who you are. Yet you may be struggling on some things just because the way the world is in its perception of autistic people.

Speaker 2:

I certainly think that the workplace is an incredibly difficult place to be. I'm self-employed now, so that's it. It wasn't a decision that was initially made just because I struggled with my job. At that point I was still like these things are happening. I was treated really badly. The organization I was working with a lot of other people were treated badly there as well. You discover that when you leave.

Speaker 2:

But in the process of coming out of that job I was headhunted essentially to deliver training and now I'm a full-time consultant trainer. It kind of happened organically in a way. As I've done that, I've begun to recognize that I operate much better in those spaces rather than the confines of nine to five. You've got to be in the office, you've got I mean, I've never really had jobs that are absolutely like nine to five in the office. I've done youth work and some of those kinds of jobs.

Speaker 2:

I worked in human trafficking for a while, so I was delivering training, working with victims, so quite a varied kind of job, which I'm now discovering. My ADHD as well and that kind of plays into that a little bit too. But regardless, I still find that self-employment, whilst it has its real difficulties, allows me to work with my energy better, so I'm not going into another cycle of autistic burnout, which I now realize. That's what that has been over my life. I can work in the areas that light me up and make the best of my gifts and talents, and I'm actually bringing more of the best of me to something, rather than being pigeonholed and kind of just not fitting in in terms of the work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean that makes total sense. So with all this happening, everything that you went through, this has really turned you to an advocate and really helped your overall business prospects in what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I started off because my whole background is in sort of safeguarding and working with special educational needs children, done a whole bunch of that stuff, working with children and young people, working with children and young people going through abuse, going through various traumas and then I moved into anti-human trafficking.

Speaker 2:

So I was dealing with that side of things as well. And then working more directly in schools running anti-abuse programs was the job that I was in. When I left that job I pulled all that together and started delivering safeguarding training, consultancy, and as I've learned more about my neurodiversity, I've expanded that to neurodiversity training. What I'm now working on is the kind of the crossover between safeguarding and neurodiversity, because what I've seen happen so much in my own career and you know, working with children, young people and so on is when we get safeguarding training, say, if you're a teacher, somebody who works with children, young people or vulnerable adults or all those things, you get your safeguarding training and these are the extra vulnerabilities that special educational needs children have, right, so you're more aware of those things. And then they turn 18, and it seems like people assume that they've grown out of it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2:

And we carry. We have to. Well, I own I'm not saying anyone else has to, but it's helpful to own that alongside our neurodiversity there are gifts, there are talents, there are things that make me who I am, that make me brilliant at the work that I do. But I do have vulnerabilities that might be different to a neurotypical person, and those things aren't always recognized. But when you look at stats and things like that, the percentage of autistic women who experience sexual abuse is way higher than neurotypical is kind of falling into abusive relationships because you're trying to people please, you're masking, you're all of those things, and so there is a huge intersection, and so what it's now doing for me is bringing those two things together, is helping me to kind of maybe work in a slightly different way, a slightly different space to people who work in sort of the neurodivergent space or people who work in safeguarding, and it ties in with mental health and it's like you, you need to have all three together. So I'm now working in that space.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the challenges that you face? One of the things that I find in talking with people for the last year and a half to two years is autistic people, those with mental health, ADHD, bipolar schizophrenia, etc. Understand what they are going through. As much as it's needed for people to understand, there has to be those that are willing to teach them so they can understand, and hopefully that'll make it better for everyone. What are some of the things that you've run into trying to do this?

Speaker 2:

I think there are a lot of assumptions made about neurodiversity. There's an awful lot now of oh my gosh, everyone's got autism or everyone's got ADHD. Nowadays it's a trend and it's like no, just the same as any other research. We've learned more, we discovered and I'm not comparing neurodiversity to illnesses but we know a lot more about illnesses. People used to die of illnesses and we didn't know what they were at all, and now there's very different and so it's bringing out some of the complexities that people experience as a neurodivergent person. Because of the way the world is going, you line up bringing some of those things out more, along with more understanding, and you get an increasing diagnosis. So people miss that. They think it's a trend.

Speaker 2:

In the UK last week we had a politician talking about the economic advantage of being autistic which, as you can imagine, went down like a lead balloon and there is this kind of sense oh, you just want those labels so that you can get extra things and it's like there is no economic advantage. There's one heck of a lot of economic disadvantages and even with, like self-diagnosis, when people have done that, they've generally researched, gone through things gradually, worked things out, gradually, figured out if someone's safe to kind of explore that. I mean, even two years ago I wouldn't have come on a podcast to talk about my autistic experience because I was still working it out. I would deliver it in my, I would talk about it in my training. That wasn't recorded, but it's a really long journey for some of us. Some people can just be out there with it straight away, and for some of us it's a really hard process of self-acceptance as well, and people don't recognize that. So I think that's a really tough one.

Speaker 1:

I can understand that for sure. I think basically what you just said is what's been said so many times You've met one autistic person. You've met one autistic person Exactly exactly. And, of course, males are diagnosed more than females are. Yeah, that will add another layer of challenges to the autistic world as well.

Speaker 2:

It's because the medical diagnosis model was created by observing white boys, so it's actually people of color as well have lower diagnoses and there's a whole other complexity about different communities and backgrounds accepting even the thought of going through diagnosis, but the medical model is based on white boys, so that's a big part of the problem.

Speaker 1:

I've talked with a lot of females that have been late diagnosed 30s, 40s, some even in their 50s. It takes a huge leap of faith to get that diagnosis because they've lived their life for so long as they have been. What would you tell someone that's considering diagnosis? They've lived their life, they're comfortable with their life, yet they know there's something not quite right. What would you tell them? Because it's a big challenge to find these things and then realize you might have to change a few things to create that better life that you want.

Speaker 2:

I think the very first thing I would say is that I wouldn't tell anybody whether they should or shouldn't, because we spend our lives being told what is appropriate, how we should fit in, what the expectations are and all of those things, and I just feel like actually adding to it a kind of also you must now do this isn't necessarily helpful, definitely not helpful. I would say that if it's something you want to explore, it's really worth being in contact with other people who have gone through, are going through the same, and being prepared for the challenges as well as the joys of it, because it gives you answers but it can give you things to grieve about. That could have been different. I would always say, if you can have some sort of therapy, that I love therapy. I'm not ashamed of it, I love it. It's hard work but I'm seeing the fruits of that now and the choice is always yours. You can self-diagnose and particularly you know the autistic and the neurodivergent community. That is acceptable. Will it make a difference in your life?

Speaker 2:

For the first few years, for me, I was like it's not going to change much because the support that I could possibly get I don't need a diagnosis for anyway here in the UK. So do I want to bother with the process? I'm now going through the process to help me to understand things more, now that I've reached a point that I want to learn more of the nuances or understand different things. I wasn't going to go through it just to get the label, as it were. So the biggest thing I would say is it's your choice. I would gently encourage that. It can be freeing and just surviving isn't the way anybody should live. But if that's all you've got in you at the moment, then don't add I haven't bothered to go for an autistic diagnosis to the list of things you beat yourself up with.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. It's tough living with it, not knowing yet. It's tough to make that decision to get a diagnosis, because when you get that diagnosis it could be freeing but it also could add a lot of stress because of the unknown oh yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

One of the things about autism is we struggle with change. So it's like way to way to kind of dive straight into something you struggle with. But if you're going into that knowing, then the change can be easier. But I really just think about being kind to ourselves, and that's something we're not very good at, because we've always spent so much time trying to fit into whatever box is expected of us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. It's finding that balance so that you can thrive in the world, but it's also finding that comfort zone that allows you to accept it and thrive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and you know it's not vastly different to anybody who's doing some self-examination, you know, being really honest with themselves, right? So I sit in my therapy. Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I don't. This is really. Sit in my therapy. Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I don't. This is really difficult. This is a really difficult thing to talk about.

Speaker 2:

My therapist it's like you're like 0.0, whatever one percent of people who actually choose to do the hard work, and not only that. You have turned up week after week for coming up for three years now, whereas other people go, okay, this is too hard, now walk away. So recognize that even choosing to be on the path is huge and actually kind of praise yourself for that a little bit. You know, yeah, and other people are doing that for other things other than just autism. So with autism, that is part of the process. It is part of the process for other self-discovery as well, things that anyone wants to work through, any kind of trauma or anything we're struggling with. So we're different in terms of the core reason, but we're not so different from anybody else who's trying to better themselves, learn more about themselves, build the life that's best for them to thrive.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely the most important thing is that you find your comfort zone. As the old saying goes, you find a way to be comfortable in your own skin. Yeah, the most important part is that you take everything that you learn, apply it, find a way to accept it and then, hopefully, with all the changes, you move forward with a better life for yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and see your own value and worth. I think one of the things I first said when I started therapy was I want to actually be able to advocate for myself, and I do now, not all the time, not perfectly, but way more than I used to. I don't even notice I'm doing it, so that's how much the change is happening. But yeah, it's about being comfortable in your own skin, not to the detriment of people around you, but we all have to kind of shuffle a little bit and accept each other, and we have to accept ourselves.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely From the time that you started up until now. What are some of the changes that you've seen in yourself?

Speaker 2:

Sitting in it it feels like forever. But I'm vastly different, vastly, vastly different. It's probably even difficult for me to self-identify some of those changes because the work that I've done means that those kind of changes are just happening naturally. But, like I say, I wouldn't openly talk about my autism in the way that I am today on a podcast that's kind of international. I wouldn't have kind of put myself in a position of saying I can actually deliver training on this stuff, you know. Whereas that's what I do now, I talk about it with people and I'm confident that I have the professional knowledge and the you know, the lived experience knowledge combined that I've got something to offer.

Speaker 2:

I didn't used to think I did in that way. I was always kind of the safety of being in a job was this is what you need to do. The difficulty was some of those things really difficult to fulfill because of my autism and my ADHD, whereas now I'm like, no, I kind of know my stuff, I know what I'm doing, I have plenty to learn. It can't be with arrogance, but I'm good in my skin a lot more than I was, way, way more than I was.

Speaker 1:

That's great to hear that you feel more confident about what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

I walk away from rubbish far quicker than I used to as well, way quicker, because it used to be. It must be something I'm doing wrong. Perhaps I changed this about me. I have a really, really deep sort of sense of empathy and I really feel other people's feelings and because of that I would be more concerned about them than me and did myself damage, or I can understand why they've treated me that way, because I know what their trauma is making them do those kinds of things, whereas now I can hold that but still go, but I still deserve respect and that's my boundary. So, yeah, that's very different, very different.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and that's a great thing. Another thing that you have to add to that is that everything that you're doing is actually helping someone and you're changing lives. That's a huge positive all the way around. I hope so.

Speaker 2:

Seems to be. You know, I do seem to sort of have positive effect in the places that I go into. That's a very British response, isn't it Very self-deprecating? Yeah, I am making a difference, I'm, you know, I'm training people, speaking to people, you know, seeing those light bulb moments, you know the work that I do with professionals, that, oh my gosh, I understand how to work with a neurodivergent family much better now. With businesses, there's things, you know. There are very simple changes that can be made. That makes things so much easier to accommodate somebody. That isn't a big deal but makes all the difference.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, you bring up the workplace. That's another area that needs to be addressed. For sure, autistic people are either underemployed or unemployed. I think that's great that you're trying to help that out too, because they certainly can contribute to the workforce.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, absolutely. The percentages are. I can't remember. I did this research the other day for another piece I was doing, but it's something like 30% of autistic people are in some form of employment, and even the employment that we're in it's not necessarily full-time, it can be part-time, zero hours, contracts, all of those different things. So if you are creating an environment where somebody can flourish and thrive, our loyalty is huge.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. How do people find you if they need your help? I'm on.

Speaker 2:

LinkedIn. I have a website. I'm on Facebook, so my website is GabriellaRussocouk. That's G-A-B-R-I-E-L-L-A-R-U-S-S-O. It's the Italian version, not the French version. And looking that up everywhere else, I'm on Instagram, linkedin, all those various things and then message me, have a chat. There's lots and lots of different ways I can work with people or just connect people and just have a conversation would be great as well.

Speaker 1:

This has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it, so thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

It's been fantastic talking to you, Tony. I really really appreciate it as well. It's a great opportunity, Lovely to meet someone who's advocating for the autistic community.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to tonymantorcom. Send them to TonyMantorcom contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.