Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental condition that affects millions of people worldwide.
It is characterized by difficulties in social interaction, communication, and repetitive behaviors.
Although autism is becoming more widely recognized, there is still a lack of understanding and awareness surrounding the condition.
As a result, many individuals and families affected by autism struggle to find the support and resources they need.
Why Not Me The World podcast aims to bridge that gap by providing valuable information and insights into autism, fostering empathy and understanding, and promoting acceptance and inclusion.
Nashville based Music Producer Tony Mantor explores the remarkable impact his guests make by empowering their voices in spreading awareness about autism and helping break down the barriers of understanding.
Join Mantor and his guests as they delve into the world of autism and mental health to explore topics such as diagnosis, treatment, research, and personal stories.
Together, we can create a more informed and compassionate society for individuals with autism.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Iko Edward Fish: Transforming Self-Perception and Building Genuine Connections – A Journey of Late Autism Diagnosis and Personal Growth
What if realizing you were autistic as an adult could change not only your self-perception but also your life's mission?
Meet Iko Edward Fish of Enlightened Consentment, who received his autism diagnosis at 38.
His path from struggling with social interactions to becoming a beacon of hope for others on the spectrum is nothing short of inspiring.
Listen to his story of growth, spurred by a TEDx talk, which led him to a deeper understanding of himself and a newfound passion for guiding autistic individuals in their dating and relationship journeys.
Ever wondered how personal growth can transform not just your emotional state but your entire life trajectory?
Discover the moving story of a young man who transitioned from social isolation in college to embracing emotional authenticity.
A personal growth program became the turning point, as he confronted years of pent-up anger and sadness, leading to an emotional breakthrough that fueled his dedication to helping others see their inherent worth.
This narrative underscores the power of emotional reconnection and the capacity for profound change.
Finally, delve into the essential topic of self-love and acceptance following a late autism diagnosis.
We cover insights from Enlightened Consentment on fostering successful relationships for those on the spectrum and beyond, emphasizing the importance of seeing autism as a cultural difference.
Learn about workshops designed to aid autistic individuals in social interactions, and discover ways to connect with Iko through his guide on overcoming social awkwardness.
Join us in spreading awareness and understanding, and hear how you can share your own stories to inspire others.
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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)
Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you'll gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Today, iko Edward Fish of Enlightened Consentment joins me. He works with autistic people confused by dating to help create relationships.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show, yeah thank you so much and I acknowledge you for being such a strong advocate and ally to the autistic community. I'm honored and appreciative.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much. The honor is all mine Now. Are you autistic, or is this something that you do so that you can help others?
Speaker 2:I am on the autism spectrum myself. I was diagnosed later in life at the age of 38, back in March of 2021. So literally three years as of this month, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:All right. I've spoken with many people that have been diagnosed later in life. What led?
Speaker 2:you to get diagnosed at a later age, diagnosed later in life.
Speaker 2:What led you to get diagnosed at a later age? So what got me diagnosed at a later age, was, after 15 years of personal growth work that I had been doing to myself, I was still missing some basic things and especially when it came to groups, I was still missing on social cues and ultimately it was listening to a uh TEDx talk by a woman who had also been diagnosed later in life. Okay, and uh, within that, it was uh in her going, describing her own challenges and what it was like during her childhood. It's like that was like me, that was like me, that was like me, that was like me, that was like me, that was like me, that was like me. It's like maybe I am actually on the autism spectrum. Sure, and I decided to put myself on a wait list and that took 18 months and then it took three days of testing and three months later for me to get the results from that, to actually be told yes, I am on the autism spectrum, me to get the results from that to actually be told.
Speaker 1:yes, I am on the autism spectrum. Yeah, that's one thing that I have heard that getting diagnosed at a later age is actually a little tougher than even getting diagnosed at a younger age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for me, when I got diagnosis like, okay, so I have this diagnosis, what does it actually give to me? You know what is available to me that wasn't available to me before, right, and I talked with a therapist about it and he said, well, you can ask for more time on tests. Like, I've already got my bachelor's degree, I'm not going back to college, right? He said you can ask for accommodations from your employer. I'm self-employed, entrepreneurial, I can give myself whatever accommodations I need. And so it's like what else is there? He was like I don't really know.
Speaker 2:And in looking around I was saying, all right, where's the silver lining in this one?
Speaker 2:It gave me a greater, a better understanding and compassion for myself, right, which in being able to go and share that I am on the autism spectrum, fully owning that.
Speaker 2:I also found more compassion, understanding from other people, sure, which is, you know, part of the reason why you're doing your whole podcast of why not me, right, to get that greater understanding. The second silver lining I found as I had been doing relationship coaching for several years. At that point I was like, okay, well, I'm part of this population and I can go and stand up and say we who are on the autism spectrum are worthy, capable and deserving of love Absolutely. And I could go and pivot for who I was going and working with and, after taking some time to actually incorporate that, starting in 2023, I actually did my first round of autistic dating success. Okay, 2023, I actually did my first round of Autistic Dating Success, focusing on those who are on the autism spectrum of actually attracting love into your life, and each one of my clients that went through that initial program either escalated the relationship that they were already in or attracting new love into your life, which I'm very proud of.
Speaker 1:Okay. So in your early years you wasn't diagnosed, so because of that you had to go through certain things, whether it be bullying or just the differences in the way that your thought process. Like most autistic people, they have a different way of looking at things and thinking about it. How dramatically did that affect you? And then did that lead you, as you grew older, to start really working towards what you're doing now?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Like growing up. Relationships actually really confused me, okay, and I had no idea how social interactions really worked. And when I was seven, my parents divorced. Okay, and with that, while I was taken to a psychologist to intellectually understand, you know, the divorce wasn't my fault, right? No one taught me how to deal with the emotional ramifications, sure, and I ended up actually cutting myself off from my emotions and going up into my head and for the next 14 years I pretty much didn't feel anything Right, and I would go through the motions of going up, going to school, coming back home, being in my room unless someone came to get me for something. Sure, my three constant companions were my cat, the TV and my Nintendo.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now, you don't have to answer this if you don't want, but it's just a kind of a question that it does pop up in my mind. Because when you say that your parents divorced at an early age, do you think that it was because of your autism? Because I know from talking with many people that the divorce rate is higher because of dealing with autism and the parents don't know how to deal with that. They're on different pages of how to approach it. So did you have like meltdowns or different things like that that might have contributed, or was it just something completely different?
Speaker 2:that might have contributed, or was it just something completely different? No, I was actually much more on the introverted route of things and so I didn't really have outlashes. I became very, very introverted, very isolated, okay. So the divorce wasn't really around that topic. That was more having to do with money issues and scarcity, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good. I mean, it's not good that divorce, but it's good that you can at least move forward knowing that you didn't contribute to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there was a part of me that did blame myself that I uncovered for a while, because there was a incident shortly before the divorce where I had gotten a sliver in my foot and I actually forgot while my dad was trying to go and remove it and he gave me a single swad on one butt cheek and my mother actually used that as one of the two reasons besides the money issue for the divorce, even though it really didn't have anything to do with me. It was just for becoming fearful of what he could be capable of, which he really wasn't violent.
Speaker 1:Right Once you got out of school and you started getting into the real world of work and just the way the world is. How did you adapt to that? Because you're self-employed now? I'm assuming that you didn't become self-employed until later on.
Speaker 2:It was actually through a process while I was going to college that I even started on my whole personal growth journey. That started literally 20 years ago, back in like February of 2020. Okay, most of my childhood and even into the high school and college, I had like maybe one friend at most at any point in time. Sure, and once I got to college, it stayed that way until I was 21. And a guy who was in a club, a social club at the college, came to me and took me out to lunch one day and he said hey, I noticed you're disconnected from your feelings. I don't mean just now, I mean you always are. What do you think about getting back in touch? And a feeling of sheer terror ran through my entire body. It was like the most intensive feeling that I'd felt in several years. I gave him every excuse and the reason in the book of, like you know, I was going to school full time, I was working just on a part-time basis, didn't have much money, and he really took a stand for me and saw something being possible okay, that I had not seen possible for myself and at least trusted him enough to go to this personal growth program. Oh good and in going to this um program like the first day was a three-day long program, first day, first evening they're like who would like to go first? I jumped up and said me I will, okay. And they said why are you here? And I said I'm here to get back in touch with my emotions. Tell me the steps for it. I'm really good at following instructions. One, two, three, four, five. Tell me how to do, okay.
Speaker 2:And when the corsairs looked at me and they said that's not how this works, okay. And I went huh, well, if you don't know how to do it and you know I don't know how to do it what is it that we're actually going to do in here? They took me through a series of steps and processes that I actually really struggled, okay. And it seemed almost like they were ready to give up on it, okay. And then one of the course leaders paused things and said hey, you know you don't have to do this, right? In fact, you don't ever need to go and do this to get back in touch with your emotions. And let me just give you a little bit of a preview of what I see your life might turn out if you choose not to do this, okay.
Speaker 2:And he painted this visceral, vivid picture that was so lonely, so distraught and heartbreaking to me and a part of my mind just went that is too much of a realistic picture, right, that I cannot allow that to go and happen. I'll do whatever it takes to go and get back in touch with these emotions. Sure, and I was able to have that breakthrough. And first there's a lot of anger that came up and they actually had like seven guys hold on to me while they just said, okay, let out this anger, you know, try to move forward. And even with these seven guys on alternate was like step by step, raw, like all this intense anger for you.
Speaker 1:What kind of anger was it? Was it an anger that was pointed at any one person, or was it pointed at the world? Or what kind of anger did you feel?
Speaker 2:It was 14 years of pent up emotion, of frustration, of the insults that I had taken, of bullying that I had gone through, that I had just kept up and bowled inside it had never spoken up to or given a voice to before that just came pouring out of me. Okay, all right. And then after that there was a layer, underneath that of sap Sure, the loneliness and the yearning and the connection of just being so isolated Right and I just curled up into a ball and I cried and cried, and cried. As I curled myself in this little fetal position, right by the end of this process I was like completely emotionally spent.
Speaker 1:I can just imagine.
Speaker 2:And they laid out a mat for me, because I literally just felt and expressed like more emotion in in that short period of time, well, you know, than I had for the past, you know, several years, sure. And I crawled over to this, I flopped down onto it and all the course leaders and the fellow participants and support staffs surrounded me a couple feet off. And, and when the course leaders looked down, fellow participants and support staffs surrounded me a couple of feet off and one of the course leaders looked down at me and said do you want them to come closer to you? I looked up to them and said yes, and the course leader said well, then, ask them. I said please, come closer. And they all took a couple of steps closer, so they're just like inches away, right.
Speaker 2:And then the course leader said do you want them to touch you? I said yes, sure, and I looked to the course leader said well then, ask them to. I looked up and pleading in my eyes and said please touch me anywhere, everywhere, and these loving people who had just seen me pour out my heart and soul and laid myself bare before them Right, put their hands on my head, on my shoulders, my torso, my legs, my feet right, and I felt flooded with unconditional love, right, and it was for the first time in my entire life that I actually felt lovable just as I was. Yeah, that is really I was. Yeah, that is really what led me into this work, that that I'm doing to let people like myself know that they are lovable just as they are. Sure, there's nothing wrong, bad or broken with them.
Speaker 1:Right. So when that happened, that was your first step towards, eventually, what you was going to do. How long did it take? From that first time that you just poured everything out, you felt all those different emotions. The people surrounded you showed you that you weren't alone, before you actually started believing that you're not alone.
Speaker 2:That's an excellent question. I always say that one thing that I knew as a strength at that point was that I was an excellent student. It was something that I prided myself on, and after I got back from that program it's like okay, I recognize, I want to feel, I want to go and connect. What is it that I'm actually going to do about this? And I started learning everything I could about relationships, dating and attraction and started to pour my attention into that, which, over that time period it's been 20 years now and over 450 hours of training, studying, certifications and different modalities. I will say that the story that I'm unlovable can still linger even to this day. Sure that there's that fear of rejection, and even in my entrepreneurial pursuits there can be parts of me that are reluctant to put myself out there. They've been concerned about you know what other people are going to think for me.
Speaker 2:Yet over that same time I have made connections, I've gotten to have these visceral, loving experiences with it.
Speaker 1:Good. So now you've been through this, how did that affect your family? Because growing up, you had this introverted self that went away from your parents and different friends. Did this change your relationship with them and how you looked at things? Did that get better because of that? Consider the question.
Speaker 2:I would say getting into the personal development and discovering who I am, what I need and what I desired.
Speaker 2:And I'll also make the distinction that the autism diagnosis was still something that was mass and not covered, not uncovered for another, you know 17 years when I started going doing this.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, I will say that in getting to know myself and what I needed, what I wanted and what I desired in terms of family, I actually started to create healthier boundaries, with the help of the coach, sure, and I was always, you know, the dutiful child of doing just whatever it was that I was asked Like.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a common trait within the autistic community for those of us to not really go much beyond the surface level and to just be like, take things at face value. So when a coach actually said to me and I had described what my relationship with my mother was like and what the environment was, and he said you know, you can actually tell your mother that you're not going to come back home for Christmas. You're not obligated to go and do that that was mind-blowing to me at the time that I actually had that choice. It was a huge shift for me to go from this is an expected obligation to, this is a choice. It's a get to, not a have to, and I will say that that has really become one of my core values of that freedom of choice, sure sure, being able to say you know what is actually right for me, regardless of what others may expect or what I want, what are my values that I choose to live by.
Speaker 1:Others may expect what I want, what are my values that I choose to live by.
Speaker 1:I had a father and a son that was on my podcast a few months ago. The father was trying to help his autistic son be more neurotypical and the son was kind of not going along with it but not fighting him hard. Then, once he got out and graduated, he and his father actually went to a therapist and his father told me that it was the hardest thing he'd ever been through because he realized that everything that he did was not absolutely 100% correct for what his son was needing and his son brought that up to him, but it strengthened their relationship. Have you done anything or thought of doing anything that like with your mother, your father or whoever you might need that in your family, to help bring that bond back together so they understand you more of what your needs are and then they can understand what you went through and hopefully, help I appreciate you asking about that and you know it's a common thing for parents wanting their kids to succeed or wanting them to go and fit in with everyone else.
Speaker 2:And, uh, the science and research actually shows that in trying to get a, an autistic or neurodivergent um person to to mask and to fit in actually causes psychological harm Right To the point of. You know, if we mask for too long, it can lead to autistic burnout or even a psychotic break because we're being so inauthentic to who it is that we actually are. Yes, and I've done a ton of personal growth work on myself. I consider myself to be a personal growth work junkie and have taken many different programs. We invested over $100,000, I'd say at this point, in all these trainings, which include self-help and professional development work.
Speaker 2:Okay, it helped me to let go of a lot of the anger and resentment that I had towards my mother. Okay, my dad was a very simple guy and he didn't really understand. He passed on back in 2016. So it was before I was diagnosed with an autism spectrum, though I did go and come out to my parents about being in multiple alternative sexual lifestyles during Christmas one year, and while my dad didn't really understand and he thought that I would literally catch some kind of disease and die from it, right. What he did go and come to as a conclusion was I don't approve and I still love you. Which, out of all the alternatives, that was a positive thing, absolutely. From the day that I moved out of the house, which is just before my 18th birthday, up until the Sunday before he died, he kept up until he called me just to see how I was every single week. That was good. I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now you went several years doing learning about yourself, going through the self help, and then you get diagnosed as autistic Once you were diagnosed. How soon was it after you got diagnosed that you actually started your own business to try and help other autistic people?
Speaker 2:I'd already been doing relationship coaching for like seven years at that point, oh, okay, all right, I was struggling, just trying to be more of a general relationship coach and trying to do things. You know a neurotypical way of going and doing things and trying to, you know, do it all all the big, successful people go into. And when I got my my autism diagnosis, I remember that I actually cried. It was like here is my last holdout for being any kind of quote, normal, right, right, it took me a while to go and come to accept of where that was at and how to integrate that into my own life in 2021. The beginning of 2023 that I actually launched and physically decided to be like. Okay, I've come to understand myself enough that here are the people that I'm choosing to more directly focus on. Right Found more success in working with those that are socially awkward on the autism spectrum.
Speaker 1:Okay, you just brought up something that I think needs to be brought out. I've talked with several people that have got diagnosed later age. They went through all their turmoil, not understanding why they were different. You're just going through everything that everybody goes through when they don't have any answers. Then they finally got the answers and I've had both things said to me which you just said. One of them was that you was upset and it kind of bothered you. And then I've had others say that it was a relief to them because now they understood where they were and what they had to do to approach life so they could take and move on and not worry about being neurotypical. They could be themselves and just start growing. So how long did it take you to get to that point of the grief, of what you felt, to the point of where, okay, this is going to be okay and now I can use this to help others?
Speaker 2:Great question. I would say that it took me a number of months of working with that and learned to integrate and accept it. About myself, besides there being a part of me that was bothered by it, it is equally true that there were parts of me that did find relief and comfort, being like oh, this explains things of why I am the way I am, that I didn't have questions to before. Sure, and with that, what I found is that the more self-acceptance and compassion I had for myself, the more that I got to experience compassion and acceptance by others as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So now what's the name of your company that you've developed? Enlightened Cons. Well, okay, all right. So now what's the name of your company that you've developed? Enlightened Consent. Okay, so Enlightened Consent that helps people find themselves, helps people with love relationships kind of an encompassing of just learning how to not only love yourself but love others. Do you have more people now that you've been diagnosed autistic? Do you have more people that you find yourself working with this on the autistic spectrum, or is it still a good mix of where you started and now you've included the autistic people within it?
Speaker 2:Great question, or one of my main premises and beliefs that I put forward and teach my clients is the idea that, as long as the people directly involved are consenting and honoring their relationship agreements, it does not matter what anyone else thinks or feels about what you're choosing to consent to.
Speaker 2:And with the populations of people that I love to go and work with are those that are outside of the societal norms, whether that be those who are on the autism spectrum or those who are like for the LGBTQ plus community, which I'm also part of, as being like queer gender fluid. And it really comes down to another premise of I can only love someone else to level and depth that they love that I love and accept myself first, and I can only feel as loved and accepted by someone else to the level of depth I love and accept myself first, and I can only feel as loved and accepted by someone else to the level of that I love and accept myself first as well. Sure, because even if people try to love me more than what I'm able to go on let in, it just causes, causes, a mess. They don't feel received and I don't feel any more loved and accepted until I grow my own container. Okay, and I don't feel any more loved, except until I've grown my own container.
Speaker 1:Okay, I had an autistic speaker. Come on, he was married, had two kids and did quite a bit of public speaking. He told me that it was very surprising the amount of people that would come up to him and really truly believe that autistic people couldn't have kids. So that goes to my theory of the understanding part that people need to get more of about autism and everyone that lives in the autistic community. Now he had a belief and I think it was a very great way of looking at things is that he's autistic, his wife's neurotypical, and they looked at it as a culture difference. And it was no different than someone marrying someone from a different part of the world or part of the country and have to learn the different ways that they live and coexist. And by doing this he really created a culture within his family that just thrived. Is that something that you kind of teach? Only maybe not quite in those same words.
Speaker 2:Yes, not quite in those same words, and I do believe that is a beautiful way to look at the autistic community as a culture If you've met an's such a wide spectrum within the autistic community.
Speaker 1:There is no one person that can justify or be the face of all autistic people and that's kind of true with neurotypical. There's not one person that can say, hey, I'm neurotypical and everybody else is just like me. We're all different and that's what makes this world unique and good.
Speaker 2:It is truly a spectrum that is not a linear line of like less severe to more severe. It's more like a kaleidoscope of, like the entire color wheel of you know, different factors that can go around.
Speaker 1:How often do you have classes that you hold daily, weekly? What's your schedule, in the way that you operate your business to help these people?
Speaker 2:Yes, and the variety is part of a beautiful thing and I really celebrate the diversity with it. What I will say is universal between all of us is that I hold that each person is worthy, capable and deserving of being loved exactly who they are, without having to go and mask.
Speaker 1:Now is this something that you do consistently weekly, monthly? What's your schedule on that?
Speaker 2:I am ramping that up. I do have a signature talk that I give at least once a month called being able to attract love into your life even if you're socially awkward as Raj from Big Bang Theory. Okay, All right. Um, and I uh have an ongoing series with my autistic dating success. For those who are are into my, into that program, that, um, they can be in it Like the initial. Usually term is like 90 days it. We get together, uh, together once a week for that, and I also travel around and present to different places, both in person as well as virtually.
Speaker 1:So you do a lot of public speaking for it.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is something that, ultimately, I'm looking to go and advocate for and part of the reason that I actually founded my nonprofit-profit Enlightened Consent Foundation back in 2021 okay we seek to create sacred sanctuary spaces for people to go and explore their identities and intimate desires without being blamed, shamed or being told that they're bad or wrong or, worse yet, could beat up on the dating apps yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you had in your last few years, or whatever the timeframe may be, have you had one or two people come to you that you looked at and they might've been a total wreck? There might've been it's like, oh, this is never going to work, they just not listening, or whatever. All of a sudden, things started clicking and then it turned into a success story for you. Great question.
Speaker 2:I will say that a number of my clients that I work with can be at a point where they don't even see what's actually possible for them. A great example, I would say, is that I've had several women that I've worked with that told me that you know they would use makeup in the mirror every day, though they would not look themselves in the eyes because they were afraid that they would hate who they saw, and, through the course of working with me, being able to get to a point where they could actually go up to a mirror, look themselves straight in the eye and say I love you and I accept you just as you are Good, and believe themselves. That's good. It is transformation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Now you're standing in a room and you've got 200 people in front of you. What message do you want to put out there to give to them?
Speaker 2:The message I have for you is that you are worthy of love just as you are. There is nothing that you need to say or do to earn that love or that worthiness. There's nothing that you could say or could do or not say or not do to lose that worthiness of love. And if you have a challenge believing in that, I invite you to just lean in for just one minute and listen to me. And by the power invested in me, by no one in particular, I hereby declare you now and forever more worthy.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right um, is there anything that we haven't touched upon that you feel that's important, that you want to put out there?
Speaker 2:Yes, I will say that, for me, being in the alternative lifestyles of being LGBTQ+, being polyamorous, being in the kink realm that it doesn't matter what turns you on and what it is that you want to engage in consensually with others, I promise you there are other people that want and desire that too, and they will say yes to you. And even if you have felt unlovable, unworthy or think you're weird or you're the only one on the planet that could ever be into whatever that thing is, it's okay and there's nothing wrong, nothing bad, nothing broken with you and you can go and have that and experience it consensually with others.
Speaker 1:Good, good. It's been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I'm really glad that you was able to come on. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, tony. I do appreciate that your listeners want to go and reach out to me. I welcome that. One of the easiest ways is callwithecocom C-A-L-L-W-I-T-H-I-C-Ocom. Okay, and if they do a forward slash tips.
Speaker 1:I'm newly creating a overcoming social awkwardness guide for people to go and help them, go and move forward and are you on all the social media platforms as well?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm on various social media platforms. Most of them is Enlightened Consent.
Speaker 1:And again I appreciate you coming on. I think it's been great.
Speaker 2:Thank you, tony, and I really appreciate the time being on your show and thank you so much for for what you're doing out into the world and helping people to understand and come to an acceptance of who we are in the autistic community and learn more about our culture absolutely, and thanks again, thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today.
Speaker 1:We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.